Civic Intelligence

Hidden Truths Project Inc.

EIN 90-1900692 • 501(c)3 • Costa Mesa, CA

Pub. 78 Eligible

Profile

Education and Arts

1901 Newport Boulevard Ste 350Costa Mesa, CA 92627

www.hiddentruthsproject.com

Siviq Scores

Precomputed percentiles relative to similar nonprofits. These scores are descriptive rather than judgmental.

Liabilities / Assets

Score unavailable

No value available

Liabilities-to-assets requires both liabilities and assets on the latest valid filing.

Source year 2025

Liabilities / Revenue

Score unavailable

No value available

Liabilities-to-revenue requires both liabilities and revenue on the latest valid filing.

Source year 2025

Net Margin

92nd percentile

62%

Higher net margin than 92% of similar nonprofits.

501(c)3 • <$500k nonprofits • Source year 2025

Top Officer Pay

83rd percentile

$5,000

Higher top officer pay than 83% of similar nonprofits.

Top officer pay equals 3.8% of source-year revenue.

501(c)3 • <$500k nonprofits • Source year 2025

Asset Growth

91st percentile

83%

Faster asset growth than 91% of similar nonprofits.

501(c)3 • <$500k nonprofits • Annualized from 2024 to 2025

Revenue Growth

95th percentile

203%

Faster revenue growth than 95% of similar nonprofits.

501(c)3 • <$500k nonprofits • Annualized from 2024 to 2025

Assets

Up

$181,791

Up $82,651 (+83%) from 2024

Liabilities

-

No earlier filing loaded for comparison.

Net Assets

Up

$181,791

Up $82,651 (+83%) from 2024

Revenue

Up

$132,793

Up $88,927 (+203%) from 2024

Expenses

Down

$50,142

Down $576 (-1.1%) from 2024

Net Income

Up

$82,651

Up $89,503 (+1306%) from 2024

Trend Graphs

Balance Sheet Trend

Grouped bars show assets, liabilities, and net assets across loaded filings.

$200K$150K$100K$50K$0Assets 2021: $33,137Net Assets 2021: $33,1372021Assets 2022: $49,528Net Assets 2022: $49,5282022Assets 2023: $105,992Net Assets 2023: $105,9922023Assets 2024: $99,140Net Assets 2024: $99,1402024Assets 2025: $181,791Net Assets 2025: $181,7912025

Highlighted filing

2025

Assets$181,791
Liabilities-
Net Assets$181,791

Operations Trend

Revenue, expenses, and net income by year, with the latest filing highlighted.

$150K$100K$50K$0-$50KRevenue 2021: $39,342Expenses 2021: $13,181Net Income 2021: $26,1612021Revenue 2022: $52,105Expenses 2022: $35,714Net Income 2022: $16,3912022Revenue 2023: $111,122Expenses 2023: $54,658Net Income 2023: $56,4642023Revenue 2024: $43,866Expenses 2024: $50,718Net Income 2024: -$6,8522024Revenue 2025: $132,793Expenses 2025: $50,142Net Income 2025: $82,6512025

Highlighted filing

2025

Revenue$132,793
Expenses$50,142
Net Income$82,651

Filings

Latest Filing Detail
Jump To
Filing Snapshot
Filing Period
Jan 1, 2025 to Dec 31, 2025
Signed
Mar 20, 2026
Return Version
2025v4.0
Gross Receipts
$132,793
Mission and Program Overview

Mission

Education and Arts

Program Services

DescriptionGrantsExpenses
Art of Epilepsy: Chicago. Using art and to engage and empower individuals with visible and invisible disabilities associated with epilepsy. Art of Epilepsy: Newport Beach. Using art and to engage and empower individuals with visible and invisible. All costs of running the charity.$0$13,170
3 $1000 Scholarships awarded. Named in Schedule O.$0$3,000
Compensation and Service Providers

Employees

NameTitleFull / Part TimeBaseOtherTotal
Heidi MeirelesVice President-$5,000-$5,000
Julie Thompson-DobkinPresidentFT$0--
Lance DumasTresurer-$0--
Filing and Contact Details

Filer

Filer Name
Hidden Truths Project
EIN
90-1900692
Address
1901 NEWPORT BOULEVARD STE 350, Costa Mesa, CA 92627

Signing Officer

Name
Julie Thompson Dobkin
Title
President
Phone
9499033206
Signed
2026-03-20
Supplemental Narrative

Additional Explanations

Doing Business As Names

| Previously The Kant Institute 46-2792117

Part I, line 10

| Grants And Similar Amounts Paid:, Amount:| 3 Scholarships granted. Tallulah Brown Van Zee Addison Woodford and Sophia Owen, $3000|

Part I, line 16

| Other Expenses:, Amount:| Program Expenses: Event Venues Catering transportation Insurance Regsiteration fees, $13171| Office and Administration: Technolgy CRM Website marketing,, $11605|

Raw XML Appendix206 raw XML fields

This appendix keeps the raw XML leaves available for debugging and edge-case review. The human report above is the primary experience.

Path#Value
IRS990EZ/ActivitiesNotPreviouslyRptInd0false
IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/PersonNm0Julie ThompsonDobkin
IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/PhoneNum09499033206
IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/AddressLine1Txt01901 Newport Boulevard
IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/AddressLine2Txt0Ste 350
IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/CityNm0Costa Mesa
IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/StateAbbreviationCd0CA
IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/ZIPCd092627
IRS990EZ/CashSavingsAndInvestmentsGrp/BOYAmt099140
IRS990EZ/CashSavingsAndInvestmentsGrp/EOYAmt0181791
IRS990EZ/ChgMadeToOrgnzngDocNotRptInd0false
IRS990EZ/ContributionsGiftsGrantsEtcAmt0132793
IRS990EZ/DirectIndirectPltclExpendAmt00
IRS990EZ/DonorAdvisedFndsInd0false
IRS990EZ/EngagedInExcessBenefitTransInd0false
IRS990EZ/ExcessOrDeficitForYearAmt082651
IRS990EZ/FeesAndOtherPymtToIndCntrctAmt02926
IRS990EZ/FiledScheduleAInd0true
IRS990EZ/ForeignFinancialAccountInd0false
IRS990EZ/ForeignOfficeInd0false
IRS990EZ/Form1120PolFiledInd0false
IRS990EZ/Form990TotalAssetsGrp/BOYAmt099140
IRS990EZ/Form990TotalAssetsGrp/EOYAmt0181791
IRS990EZ/GainOrLossFromSaleOfAssetsAmt00
IRS990EZ/GrantsAndSimilarAmountsPaidAmt03000
IRS990EZ/GrossProfitLossSlsOfInvntryAmt00
IRS990EZ/GrossReceiptsAmt0132793
IRS990EZ/InfoInScheduleOPartIInd0X
IRS990EZ/LobbyingActivitiesInd0false
IRS990EZ/MadeLoansToFromOfficersInd0false
IRS990EZ/MethodOfAccountingCashInd0X
IRS990EZ/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesBOYAmt099140
IRS990EZ/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesEOYAmt0181791
IRS990EZ/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesGrp/BOYAmt099140
IRS990EZ/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesGrp/EOYAmt0181791
IRS990EZ/OccupancyRentUtltsAndMaintAmt09278
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/AverageHrsPerWkDevotedToPosRt040
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/AverageHrsPerWkDevotedToPosRt13
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/AverageHrsPerWkDevotedToPosRt23
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/CompensationAmt00
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/CompensationAmt15000
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/CompensationAmt20
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/EmployeeBenefitProgramAmt00
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/EmployeeBenefitProgramAmt10
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/EmployeeBenefitProgramAmt20
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/ExpenseAccountOtherAllwncAmt00
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/ExpenseAccountOtherAllwncAmt10
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/ExpenseAccountOtherAllwncAmt20
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/PersonNm0Julie Thompson-Dobkin
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/PersonNm1Heidi Meireles
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/PersonNm2Lance Dumas
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/TitleTxt0President
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/TitleTxt1Vice President
IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/TitleTxt2Tresurer
IRS990EZ/OperateHospitalInd0false
IRS990EZ/Organization501c3Ind0X
IRS990EZ/OrganizationDissolvedEtcInd0false
IRS990EZ/OrganizationHadUBIInd0false
IRS990EZ/OtherExpensesTotalAmt024776
IRS990EZ/PartVIHghstPdCntrctProfSrvcTxt0NONE
IRS990EZ/PartVIOfCompOfHghstPdEmplTxt0NONE
IRS990EZ/PoliticalCampaignActyInd0false
IRS990EZ/PrimaryExemptPurposeTxt0Education and Arts
IRS990EZ/PrintingPublicationsPostageAmt05162
IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/DescriptionProgramSrvcAccomTxt03 $1000 Scholarships awarded. Named in Schedule O.
IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/DescriptionProgramSrvcAccomTxt1Art of Epilepsy: Chicago. Using art and to engage and empower individuals with visible and invisible disabilities associated with epilepsy. Art of Epilepsy: Newport Beach. Using art and to engage and empower individuals with visible and invisible. All costs of running the charity.
IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/GrantsAndAllocationsAmt00
IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/GrantsAndAllocationsAmt10
IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/ProgramServiceExpensesAmt03000
IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/ProgramServiceExpensesAmt113170
IRS990EZ/ProhibitedTaxShelterTransInd0false
IRS990EZ/RelatedOrganizationCtrlEntInd0false
IRS990EZ/SalariesOtherCompEmplBnftAmt05000
IRS990EZ/ScheduleBNotRequiredInd0X
IRS990EZ/SchoolOperatingInd0false
IRS990EZ/SpecialEventsNetIncomeLossAmt00
IRS990EZ/SubjectToProxyTaxInd0false
IRS990EZ/TanningServicesProvidedInd0false
IRS990EZ/TotalExpensesAmt050142
IRS990EZ/TotalProgramServiceExpensesAmt016170
IRS990EZ/TotalRevenueAmt0132793
IRS990EZ/TransactionWithControlEntInd0false
IRS990EZ/TrnsfrExmptNonChrtblRltdOrgInd0false
IRS990EZ/TypeOfOrganizationCorpInd0X
IRS990EZ/WebsiteAddressTxt0www.hiddentruthsproject.com
IRS990ScheduleA/AmountsRcvdDsqlfyPersonGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/AmountsRcvdDsqlfyPersonGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/AmountsRcvdDsqlfyPersonGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/AmountsRcvdDsqlfyPersonGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/AmountsRcvdDsqlfyPersonGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/AmountsRcvdDsqlfyPersonGrp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GiftsGrantsContrisRcvd509Grp/CurrentTaxYearAmt0132793
IRS990ScheduleA/GiftsGrantsContrisRcvd509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt043866
IRS990ScheduleA/GiftsGrantsContrisRcvd509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt0111122
IRS990ScheduleA/GiftsGrantsContrisRcvd509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt052105
IRS990ScheduleA/GiftsGrantsContrisRcvd509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt039342
IRS990ScheduleA/GiftsGrantsContrisRcvd509Grp/TotalAmt0379228
IRS990ScheduleA/GovtFurnSrvcFcltsVl509Grp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GovtFurnSrvcFcltsVl509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GovtFurnSrvcFcltsVl509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GovtFurnSrvcFcltsVl509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GovtFurnSrvcFcltsVl509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GovtFurnSrvcFcltsVl509Grp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossInvestmentIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossInvestmentIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossInvestmentIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossInvestmentIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossInvestmentIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossInvestmentIncome509Grp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsNonUnrltBusGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsNonUnrltBusGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsNonUnrltBusGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsNonUnrltBusGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsNonUnrltBusGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsNonUnrltBusGrp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomeAndUBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomeAndUBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomeAndUBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomeAndUBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomeAndUBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomeAndUBTIGrp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomeCYPct00
IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomePYPct00.00
IRS990ScheduleA/NetIncomeFromOtherUBIGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/NetIncomeFromOtherUBIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/NetIncomeFromOtherUBIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/NetIncomeFromOtherUBIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/NetIncomeFromOtherUBIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/NetIncomeFromOtherUBIGrp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/OtherIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/OtherIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/OtherIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/OtherIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/OtherIncome509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/OtherIncome509Grp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/Post1975UBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/Post1975UBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/Post1975UBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/Post1975UBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/Post1975UBTIGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/Post1975UBTIGrp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/PubliclySupportedOrg509a2Ind0X
IRS990ScheduleA/PublicSupportCY509Pct01
IRS990ScheduleA/PublicSupportPY509Pct01
IRS990ScheduleA/PublicSupportTotal509Amt0379228
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstAndDsqlfyPrsnsTotGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstAndDsqlfyPrsnsTotGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstAndDsqlfyPrsnsTotGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstAndDsqlfyPrsnsTotGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstAndDsqlfyPrsnsTotGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstAndDsqlfyPrsnsTotGrp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstantialContributorsAmtGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstantialContributorsAmtGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstantialContributorsAmtGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstantialContributorsAmtGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstantialContributorsAmtGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/SubstantialContributorsAmtGrp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/TaxRevLeviedOrgnztnlBnft509Grp/CurrentTaxYearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/TaxRevLeviedOrgnztnlBnft509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/TaxRevLeviedOrgnztnlBnft509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/TaxRevLeviedOrgnztnlBnft509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/TaxRevLeviedOrgnztnlBnft509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/TaxRevLeviedOrgnztnlBnft509Grp/TotalAmt00
IRS990ScheduleA/ThirtyThrPctSuprtTestsCY509Ind0X
IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/CurrentTaxYearAmt0132793
IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt043866
IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt0111122
IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt052105
IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt039342
IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/TotalAmt0379228
IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/CurrentTaxYearAmt0132793
IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt043866
IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt0111122
IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus3YearsAmt052105
IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus4YearsAmt039342
IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/TotalAmt0379228
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt0| Previously The Kant Institute 46-2792117
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt1| Grants And Similar Amounts Paid:, Amount:| 3 Scholarships granted. Tallulah Brown Van Zee Addison Woodford and Sophia Owen, $3000|
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt2| Other Expenses:, Amount:| Program Expenses: Event Venues Catering transportation Insurance Regsiteration fees, $13171| Office and Administration: Technolgy CRM Website marketing,, $11605|
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc0Doing Business As Names
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc1Part I, line 10
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc2Part I, line 16
ReturnHeader/BuildTS02025-03-06 01:10:19Z
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PersonNm0Julie Thompson Dobkin
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PersonTitleTxt0President
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PhoneNum09499033206
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/SignatureDt02026-03-20
ReturnHeader/Filer/BusinessName/BusinessNameLine1Txt0Hidden Truths Project
ReturnHeader/Filer/BusinessNameControlTxt0HIDD
ReturnHeader/Filer/EIN0901900692
ReturnHeader/Filer/ForeignPhoneNum09499033206
ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/AddressLine1Txt01901 NEWPORT BOULEVARD STE 350
ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/CityNm0Costa Mesa
ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/StateAbbreviationCd0CA
ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/ZIPCd092627
ReturnHeader/ReturnTs02026-03-19T13:12:44-04:00
ReturnHeader/ReturnTypeCd0990EZ
ReturnHeader/TaxPeriodBeginDt02025-01-01
ReturnHeader/TaxPeriodEndDt02025-12-31
ReturnHeader/TaxYr02025

Document Assets

No mirrored PDF or thumbnail assets are attached yet.