Liabilities / Assets
98th percentile
Higher debt load relative to assets than 98% of similar nonprofits.
Top Lider Inc
EIN 82-2150244 • 501(c)3 • Merced, CA
Profile
The primary mission of top lider is to offer specialized seminars to the hispanic community, intended to redesign the student's minds so that each, within their own moral, educational, intellectual, economic, religious, and spiritual basis, can make a life-changing transformation.
Siviq Scores
Precomputed percentiles relative to similar nonprofits. These scores are descriptive rather than judgmental.
8.40x
Liabilities / Revenue
97th percentile
Higher debt load relative to revenue than 97% of similar nonprofits.
Net Margin
36th percentile
Higher net margin than 36% of similar nonprofits.
Top Officer Pay
81st percentile
Higher top officer pay than 81% of similar nonprofits.
Top officer pay equals 0.0% of source-year revenue.
Asset Growth
31st percentile
Faster asset growth than 31% of similar nonprofits.
Revenue Growth
62nd percentile
Faster revenue growth than 62% of similar nonprofits.
Balance Sheet
Assets
Down$58,783
Down $161,649 (-73%) from 2022
Liabilities
Down$493,821
Down $6,079 (-1.2%) from 2022
Net Assets
Down-$435,038
Down $155,570 (-56%) from 2022
Revenue
Up$199,471
Up $145,205 (+268%) from 2022
Expenses
Down$209,027
Down $53,953 (-21%) from 2022
Net Income
Up-$9,556
Up $199,158 (+95%) from 2022
Trend Graphs
Filings
Most recent year
2024 • Form 990EZDetailed filing. Detailed filing data is available for this year.
- Assets
- $58,783
- Liabilities
- $493,821
- Net assets
- -$435,038
- Revenue
- $199,471
- Expenses
- $209,027
- Net income
- -$9,556
Latest Filing Detail
Jump To
Filing Snapshot
- Filing Period
- Jan 1, 2024 to Dec 31, 2024
- Signed
- Nov 13, 2025
- Return Version
- 2024v5.2
- Gross Receipts
- $199,471
Mission and Program Overview
Mission
The primary mission of top lider is to offer specialized seminars to the hispanic community, intended to redesign the student's minds so that each, within their own moral, educational, intellectual, economic, religious, and spiritual basis, can make a life-changing transformation.
Program Services
| Description | Grants | Expenses |
|---|---|---|
| BASIC PROGRAM: THIS PROGRAM IS A THREE DAY 30 HOUR PROGRAM WHERE STUDENTS ARE ASKED TO DEFINE, EXAMINE, AND IF NECESSARY CONFRONT HIS OR HER BELIEFS ON WHICH THEIR GOALS, THOUGHTS, AND ACTIONS ARE BASED AND THUS PROVIDE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO DISCARD OR MODIFY THE SUCCES-IMPEDING ONES AND STRENGTHEN THOSE THAT EDIFY THEM. IT IS A SEMINAR FOR STUDENTS TO EXAMINE THE HUMAN INFLUENCES THAT AFFECT THEM AND TO EVALUATE EACH, AND THEIR RESPONSIVE ACTS, ACCORDINGLY, AS THEY SEE FIT FOR THEIR MAKING OF A BETTER LIFE. | $0 | $0 |
Compensation and Service Providers
Employees
| Name | Title | Full / Part Time | Base | Other | Total |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| MARICELA PENA | President | PT | $0 | - | - |
| SUSAN VERDUZCO | Treasurer | PT | $0 | - | - |
| ROSA VERDUZCO | Board Of Director | - | $0 | - | - |
| CAROLINA VALERIO | Board Of Director | - | $0 | - | - |
| RAUL PENA | Secretary | - | $0 | - | - |
Filing and Contact Details
Filer
- Filer Name
- Top Lider Inc
- EIN
- 82-2150244
- Phone
- 2095223388
- Address
- 3665 LOYOLA CT, MERCED, CA 95348
Signing Officer
- Name
- Maricela Pena
- Title
- President
- Phone
- 2095223388
- Signed
- 2025-11-13
- Discuss with paid preparer
- Yes
Preparer
- Firm
- Kemper CPA Group Llp
- Address
- 478 EAST YOSEMITE AVE SUITE A, MERCED, CA 95340
- Preparer
- Jorge Cisneros CPA
- Phone
- 2097222794
Supplemental Narrative
Additional Explanations
Form 990-ez, Part I, Line 14
“Description: depreciation. Amount: 1,206. Description: other expenses. Amount: 30,157. Total to form 990-ez, line 14: 31,363.”
Form 990-ez, Part I, Line 16 - Other Expenses
“Description: office expense. Amount: 4,352. Description: professional fees. Amount: 749. Description: telephone exp. Amount: 2,575. Description: rent expense. Amount: 6,498. Description: utilities. Amount: 999. Description: bank service charge. Amount: 1,489. Total to form 990-ez, line 16: 16,662.”
Form 990-ez, Part II, Line 24 - Other Assets
“Description: other depreciable assets. Beg. Of year amount: 9,900. End of year amount: 8,694.”
Form 990-ez, Part II, Line 26 - Other Liabilities
“Description: sba loan. Beg. Of year amount: 86,400. End of year amount: 86,400. Description: new sba loan. Beg. Of year amount: 413,500. End of year amount: 407,421.”
Raw XML Appendix158 raw XML fields
This appendix keeps the raw XML leaves available for debugging and edge-case review. The human report above is the primary experience.
| Path | # | Value |
|---|---|---|
| IRS990EZ/ActivitiesNotPreviouslyRptInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/BenefitsPaidToOrForMembersAmt | 0 | 9485 |
| IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/BusinessName/BusinessNameLine1Txt | 0 | MARICELA PENA |
| IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/PhoneNum | 0 | 2095223388 |
| IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/AddressLine1Txt | 0 | 3665 LOYOLA CT |
| IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/CityNm | 0 | MERCED |
| IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/StateAbbreviationCd | 0 | CA |
| IRS990EZ/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/ZIPCd | 0 | 95348 |
| IRS990EZ/CashSavingsAndInvestmentsGrp/BOYAmt | 0 | 64518 |
| IRS990EZ/CashSavingsAndInvestmentsGrp/EOYAmt | 0 | 50089 |
| IRS990EZ/ChgMadeToOrgnzngDocNotRptInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/DirectIndirectPltclExpendAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/DonorAdvisedFndsInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/EngagedInExcessBenefitTransInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/ExcessOrDeficitForYearAmt | 0 | -9556 |
| IRS990EZ/FeesAndOtherPymtToIndCntrctAmt | 0 | 98498 |
| IRS990EZ/FiledScheduleAInd | 0 | 1 |
| IRS990EZ/ForeignFinancialAccountInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/ForeignOfficeInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/Form990TotalAssetsGrp/BOYAmt | 0 | 74418 |
| IRS990EZ/Form990TotalAssetsGrp/EOYAmt | 0 | 58783 |
| IRS990EZ/GrossReceiptsAmt | 0 | 199471 |
| IRS990EZ/InfoInScheduleOPartIIIInd | 0 | X |
| IRS990EZ/InfoInScheduleOPartIIInd | 0 | X |
| IRS990EZ/InfoInScheduleOPartIInd | 0 | X |
| IRS990EZ/InfoInScheduleOPartVInd | 0 | X |
| IRS990EZ/LobbyingActivitiesInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/MadeLoansToFromOfficersInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/MethodOfAccountingCashInd | 0 | X |
| IRS990EZ/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesBOYAmt | 0 | -425482 |
| IRS990EZ/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesEOYAmt | 0 | -435038 |
| IRS990EZ/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesGrp/BOYAmt | 0 | -425482 |
| IRS990EZ/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesGrp/EOYAmt | 0 | -435038 |
| IRS990EZ/OccupancyRentUtltsAndMaintAmt | 0 | 31363 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/AverageHrsPerWkDevotedToPosRt | 0 | 20.00 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/AverageHrsPerWkDevotedToPosRt | 1 | 8.00 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/AverageHrsPerWkDevotedToPosRt | 2 | 2.00 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/AverageHrsPerWkDevotedToPosRt | 3 | 2.00 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/AverageHrsPerWkDevotedToPosRt | 4 | 4.00 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/CompensationAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/CompensationAmt | 1 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/CompensationAmt | 2 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/CompensationAmt | 3 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/CompensationAmt | 4 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/EmployeeBenefitProgramAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/EmployeeBenefitProgramAmt | 1 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/EmployeeBenefitProgramAmt | 2 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/EmployeeBenefitProgramAmt | 3 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/EmployeeBenefitProgramAmt | 4 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/ExpenseAccountOtherAllwncAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/ExpenseAccountOtherAllwncAmt | 1 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/ExpenseAccountOtherAllwncAmt | 2 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/ExpenseAccountOtherAllwncAmt | 3 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/ExpenseAccountOtherAllwncAmt | 4 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/PersonNm | 0 | MARICELA PENA |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/PersonNm | 1 | SUSAN VERDUZCO |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/PersonNm | 2 | ROSA VERDUZCO |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/PersonNm | 3 | CAROLINA VALERIO |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/PersonNm | 4 | RAUL PENA |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/TitleTxt | 0 | PRESIDENT |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/TitleTxt | 1 | TREASURER |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/TitleTxt | 2 | BOARD OF DIRECTOR |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/TitleTxt | 3 | BOARD OF DIRECTOR |
| IRS990EZ/OfficerDirectorTrusteeEmplGrp/TitleTxt | 4 | SECRETARY |
| IRS990EZ/OperateHospitalInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/Organization501c3Ind | 0 | X |
| IRS990EZ/OrganizationDissolvedEtcInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OrganizationHadUBIInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OtherAssetsTotalDetail/BOYAmt | 0 | 9900 |
| IRS990EZ/OtherAssetsTotalDetail/EOYAmt | 0 | 8694 |
| IRS990EZ/OtherChangesInNetAssetsAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/OtherExpensesTotalAmt | 0 | 16662 |
| IRS990EZ/PartVIHghstPdCntrctProfSrvcTxt | 0 | NONE |
| IRS990EZ/PartVIOfCompOfHghstPdEmplTxt | 0 | NONE |
| IRS990EZ/PoliticalCampaignActyInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/PrimaryExemptPurposeTxt | 0 | THE PRIMARY MISSION OF TOP LIDER IS TO OFFER SPECIALIZED SEMINARS TO THE HISPANIC COMMUNITY, INTENDED TO REDESIGN THE STUDENT'S MINDS SO THAT EACH, WITHIN THEIR OWN MORAL, EDUCATIONAL, INTELLECTUAL, ECONOMIC, RELIGIOUS, AND SPIRITUAL BASIS, CAN MAKE A LIFE-CHANGING TRANSFORMATION. |
| IRS990EZ/PrintingPublicationsPostageAmt | 0 | 31497 |
| IRS990EZ/ProgramServiceRevenueAmt | 0 | 199471 |
| IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/DescriptionProgramSrvcAccomTxt | 0 | BASIC PROGRAM: THIS PROGRAM IS A THREE DAY 30 HOUR PROGRAM WHERE STUDENTS ARE ASKED TO DEFINE, EXAMINE, AND IF NECESSARY CONFRONT HIS OR HER BELIEFS ON WHICH THEIR GOALS, THOUGHTS, AND ACTIONS ARE BASED AND THUS PROVIDE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO DISCARD OR MODIFY THE SUCCES-IMPEDING ONES AND STRENGTHEN THOSE THAT EDIFY THEM. IT IS A SEMINAR FOR STUDENTS TO EXAMINE THE HUMAN INFLUENCES THAT AFFECT THEM AND TO EVALUATE EACH, AND THEIR RESPONSIVE ACTS, ACCORDINGLY, AS THEY SEE FIT FOR THEIR MAKING OF A BETTER LIFE. |
| IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/GrantsAndAllocationsAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/ProgramSrvcAccomplishmentGrp/ProgramServiceExpensesAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/ProhibitedTaxShelterTransInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/RelatedOrganizationCtrlEntInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/SalariesOtherCompEmplBnftAmt | 0 | 21522 |
| IRS990EZ/ScheduleBNotRequiredInd | 0 | X |
| IRS990EZ/SchoolOperatingInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/StatesWhereCopyOfReturnIsFldCd | 0 | CA |
| IRS990EZ/SubjectToProxyTaxInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/SumOfTotalLiabilitiesGrp/BOYAmt | 0 | 499900 |
| IRS990EZ/SumOfTotalLiabilitiesGrp/EOYAmt | 0 | 493821 |
| IRS990EZ/TanningServicesProvidedInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/TaxImposedOnOrganizationMgrAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/TaxImposedUnderIRC4911Amt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/TaxImposedUnderIRC4912Amt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/TaxImposedUnderIRC4955Amt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/TaxReimbursedByOrganizationAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/TotalExpensesAmt | 0 | 209027 |
| IRS990EZ/TotalProgramServiceExpensesAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/TotalRevenueAmt | 0 | 199471 |
| IRS990EZ/TrnsfrExmptNonChrtblRltdOrgInd | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990EZ/TypeOfOrganizationCorpInd | 0 | X |
| IRS990EZ/WebsiteAddressTxt | 0 | WWW.TOPLIDER.ORG |
| IRS990ScheduleA/AmountsRcvdDsqlfyPersonGrp/TotalAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt | 0 | 183894 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt | 0 | 54266 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/GrossReceiptsAdmissionsGrp/TotalAmt | 0 | 238160 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/InvestmentIncomeCYPct | 0 | 0.00000 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/PubliclySupportedOrg509a2Ind | 0 | X |
| IRS990ScheduleA/PublicSupportCY509Pct | 0 | 1.00000 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/PublicSupportPY509Pct | 0 | 1.00000 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/PublicSupportTotal509Amt | 0 | 238160 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/SubstAndDsqlfyPrsnsTotGrp/TotalAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/SubstantialContributorsAmtGrp/TotalAmt | 0 | 0 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/ThirtyThrPctSuprtTestsCY509Ind | 0 | X |
| IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt | 0 | 183894 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt | 0 | 54266 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/Total509Grp/TotalAmt | 0 | 238160 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus1YearAmt | 0 | 183894 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/CurrentTaxYearMinus2YearsAmt | 0 | 54266 |
| IRS990ScheduleA/TotalSupportCalendarYearGrp/TotalAmt | 0 | 238160 |
| IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt | 0 | DESCRIPTION: DEPRECIATION. AMOUNT: 1,206. DESCRIPTION: OTHER EXPENSES. AMOUNT: 30,157. TOTAL TO FORM 990-EZ, LINE 14: 31,363. |
| IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt | 1 | DESCRIPTION: OFFICE EXPENSE. AMOUNT: 4,352. DESCRIPTION: PROFESSIONAL FEES. AMOUNT: 749. DESCRIPTION: TELEPHONE EXP. AMOUNT: 2,575. DESCRIPTION: RENT EXPENSE. AMOUNT: 6,498. DESCRIPTION: UTILITIES. AMOUNT: 999. DESCRIPTION: BANK SERVICE CHARGE. AMOUNT: 1,489. TOTAL TO FORM 990-EZ, LINE 16: 16,662. |
| IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt | 2 | DESCRIPTION: OTHER DEPRECIABLE ASSETS. BEG. OF YEAR AMOUNT: 9,900. END OF YEAR AMOUNT: 8,694. |
| IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt | 3 | DESCRIPTION: SBA LOAN. BEG. OF YEAR AMOUNT: 86,400. END OF YEAR AMOUNT: 86,400. DESCRIPTION: NEW SBA LOAN. BEG. OF YEAR AMOUNT: 413,500. END OF YEAR AMOUNT: 407,421. |
| IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc | 0 | FORM 990-EZ, PART I, LINE 14 |
| IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc | 1 | FORM 990-EZ, PART I, LINE 16 - OTHER EXPENSES |
| IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc | 2 | FORM 990-EZ, PART II, LINE 24 - OTHER ASSETS |
| IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc | 3 | FORM 990-EZ, PART II, LINE 26 - OTHER LIABILITIES |
| TransferPrsnlBnftContractsDecl/DeclarationDesc | 0 | THE ORGANIZATION DID NOT, DURING THE YEAR, RECEIVE ANY FUNDS, DIRECTLY,OR INDIRECTLY, TO PAY PREMIUMS ON A PERSONAL BENEFIT CONTRACT.THE ORGANIZATION, DID NOT, DURING THE YEAR, PAY ANY PREMIUMS, DIRECTLY,OR INDIRECTLY, ON A PERSONAL BENEFIT CONTRACT. |
| ReturnHeader/BuildTS | 0 | 2025-03-06 01:10:19Z |
| ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/DiscussWithPaidPreparerInd | 0 | 1 |
| ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PersonNm | 0 | MARICELA PENA |
| ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PersonTitleTxt | 0 | PRESIDENT |
| ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PhoneNum | 0 | 2095223388 |
| ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/SignatureDt | 0 | 2025-11-13 |
| ReturnHeader/Filer/BusinessName/BusinessNameLine1Txt | 0 | TOP LIDER INC |
| ReturnHeader/Filer/BusinessNameControlTxt | 0 | TOPL |
| ReturnHeader/Filer/EIN | 0 | 822150244 |
| ReturnHeader/Filer/PhoneNum | 0 | 2095223388 |
| ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/AddressLine1Txt | 0 | 3665 LOYOLA CT |
| ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/CityNm | 0 | MERCED |
| ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/StateAbbreviationCd | 0 | CA |
| ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/ZIPCd | 0 | 95348 |
| ReturnHeader/IRSResponsiblePrtyInfoCurrInd | 0 | 0 |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerFirmEIN | 0 | 370818432 |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerFirmName/BusinessNameLine1Txt | 0 | KEMPER CPA GROUP LLP |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerUSAddress/AddressLine1Txt | 0 | 478 EAST YOSEMITE AVE SUITE A |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerUSAddress/CityNm | 0 | MERCED |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerUSAddress/StateAbbreviationCd | 0 | CA |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerUSAddress/ZIPCd | 0 | 95340 |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerPersonGrp/PhoneNum | 0 | 2097222794 |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerPersonGrp/PreparationDt | 0 | 2025-11-12 |
| ReturnHeader/PreparerPersonGrp/PreparerPersonNm | 0 | JORGE CISNEROS CPA |
| ReturnHeader/ReturnTs | 0 | 2025-11-13T18:47:37-06:00 |
| ReturnHeader/ReturnTypeCd | 0 | 990EZ |
| ReturnHeader/TaxPeriodBeginDt | 0 | 2024-01-01 |
| ReturnHeader/TaxPeriodEndDt | 0 | 2024-12-31 |
| ReturnHeader/TaxYr | 0 | 2024 |
Document Assets
No mirrored PDF or thumbnail assets are attached yet.