Civic Intelligence

Veterans of Foreign Wars Dept Of

EIN 23-7143090 • 501(c)19

Profile

Provide services for veterans

28945 Joy Road48185

n/A

Siviq Scores

Precomputed percentiles relative to similar nonprofits. These scores are descriptive rather than judgmental.

Liabilities / Assets

56th percentile

0.00x

Tied with the lowest-debt nonprofits in its peer group.

501(c)19 • <$500k nonprofits • Source year 2015

Liabilities / Revenue

57th percentile

0.00x

Tied with the lowest-debt nonprofits in its peer group.

501(c)19 • <$500k nonprofits • Source year 2015

Net Margin

40th percentile

-2.4%

Higher net margin than 40% of similar nonprofits.

501(c)19 • <$500k nonprofits • Source year 2015

Top Officer Pay

93rd percentile

$0

Higher top officer pay than 93% of similar nonprofits.

Top officer pay equals 0.0% of source-year revenue.

501(c)19 • <$500k nonprofits • Source year 2015

Asset Growth

48th percentile

-0.3%

Faster asset growth than 48% of similar nonprofits.

501(c)19 • <$500k nonprofits • Annualized from 2014 to 2015

Revenue Growth

56th percentile

4.9%

Faster revenue growth than 56% of similar nonprofits.

501(c)19 • <$500k nonprofits • Annualized from 2014 to 2015

Balance Sheet
Liabilities / Assets56th percentile

Assets

Down

$305,701

Down $788 (-0.3%) from 2014

Liabilities

Flat

$0

Flat from 2014

Net Assets

Down

$305,701

Down $788 (-0.3%) from 2014

Operations
Liabilities / Revenue57th percentileNet Margin40th percentile

Revenue

Up

$32,464

Up $1,523 (+4.9%) from 2014

Expenses

Up

$33,252

Up $2,307 (+7.5%) from 2014

Net Income

Down

-$788

Down $784 (-19600%) from 2014

Trend Graphs

Balance Sheet Trend

Asset Growth48th percentile

Grouped bars show assets, liabilities, and net assets across loaded filings.

$400K$300K$200K$100K$0Assets 2011: $309,228Liabilities 2011: $0Net Assets 2011: $309,2282011Assets 2012: $311,137Liabilities 2012: $0Net Assets 2012: $311,1372012Assets 2013: $305,710Liabilities 2013: $0Net Assets 2013: $305,7102013Assets 2014: $306,489Liabilities 2014: $0Net Assets 2014: $306,4892014Assets 2015: $305,701Liabilities 2015: $0Net Assets 2015: $305,7012015

Highlighted filing

2015

Assets$305,701
Liabilities$0
Net Assets$305,701
Open 2015 Filing

Operations Trend

Revenue Growth56th percentile

Revenue, expenses, and net income by year, with the latest filing highlighted.

$60K$40K$20K$0-$20KExpenses 2011: $44,3052011Expenses 2012: $44,9312012Expenses 2013: $41,0212013Revenue 2014: $30,941Expenses 2014: $30,945Net Income 2014: -$42014Revenue 2015: $32,464Expenses 2015: $33,252Net Income 2015: -$7882015

Highlighted filing

2015

Revenue$32,464
Expenses$33,252
Net Income-$788
Open 2015 Filing

Filings

Most recent year

2015 • Form 990XML pending. An XML filing is linked for this year, but detailed extraction is still pending.

Open filing
Assets
$305,701
Liabilities
$0
Net assets
$305,701
Revenue
$32,464
Expenses
$33,252
Net income
-$788
Balance SheetOperations
YearAssetsLiabilitiesNet AssetsRevenueExpensesNet Income
2015XML pending. An XML filing is linked for this year, but detailed extraction is still pending.$3.06$0.00$3.06$0.32$0.33$0.01
2014Detailed filing. Detailed filing data is available for this year.$3.06$0.00$3.06$0.31$0.31$0.00
2013Facts available. Structured filing facts are available, but richer extracted sections are limited.$3.06$0.00$3.06$0.41
2012Facts available. Structured filing facts are available, but richer extracted sections are limited.$3.11$0.00$3.11$0.45
2011XML pending. An XML filing is linked for this year, but detailed extraction is still pending.$3.09$0.00$3.09$0.44
Latest Detailed Filing

The latest 2015 filing currently has linked XML that has not been fully parsed yet. Showing the latest detailed filing from 2014 below.

Jump To
Filing Snapshot
Filing Period
Jul 1, 2013 to Jun 30, 2014
Signed
Oct 29, 2014
Return Version
2013v3.1
Gross Receipts
$54,059
Mission and Program Overview

Mission

Provide services for veterans

Balance Sheet Detail
LineBeginningEndChange
Assets
Land, Buildings, and Equipment, Net$300,000$300,000→ $0
Pd in Cap Srpls Land Bldg Eqp Fund$300,000$300,000→ $0
Cash and Non-Interest-Bearing Accounts$5,710$6,489▲ $779
Cap Stk Tr Prin Current Funds$5,710$6,489▲ $779
Total Assets$305,710$306,489▲ $779
Liabilities
Total Liabilities$0$0→ $0
Net Assets / Fund Balance
Total Net Assets Fund Balance$305,710$306,489▲ $779
Total Liabilities and Net Assets / Fund Balance$305,710$306,489▲ $779

Asset Categories

AssetBook ValueDepreciationBasis
Buildings$300,000--
Compensation and Service Providers
Top Officer Pay93rd percentile

Board Members and Trustees

NameTitle
John WelchmanCommander
Richard CiaramitaroQuartermaster
Revenue and Support

Revenue Composition

Contributions and Grants
$4,939
Program Service Revenue
$0
Investment Income
$0
Other Revenue
$26,002
All Other Contributions
$4,264
Change in Net Assets
$-4
Expenses and Functional Allocation

Major Expense Lines

Line ItemAmount
Other Expenses$30,945
Grants and Similar Amounts Paid$0
Professional Fundraising Fees$0
Salaries, Compensation, and Employee Benefits$0
Total Fundraising Expense$0

Functional Expense Allocation

Line ItemProgramManagementFundraisingTotal
Other Expenses---$637
Total Functional Expenses$0$0$0$30,945
Fundraising, Events, and Gaming
Fundraising activities
No
Gaming activities
No
Professional fundraiser used
No

Fundraising and Gaming Totals

Line ItemAmount
Gaming Gross Income$14,789
Gaming Direct Expenses$9,444
Fundraising Gross Income$8,698
Fundraising Direct Expenses$500
Professional Fundraising Fees$0
Political and Lobbying Activity
Political campaign activity
No
Lobbying activity
No
Subject to proxy tax
No
Governance and Compliance

Governance Checklist

Compiled or reviewed by an accountant
Yes
Audit committee
Yes
Backup withholding compliance
Yes
Business relationship with family members
No
Business relationship with organization members
No
Material changes to governing documents
No
Compensation from other sources disclosed
No
CEO compensation reviewed
No
Other officer compensation reviewed
No
Conflict-of-interest policy
No
Audited financial statements prepared
No
Key decisions subject to board approval
Yes
Management duties delegated
No
Filing and Contact Details

Filer

EIN
23-7143090
Phone
7345259454

Signing Officer

Name
John Welchman
Title
Commander
Phone
7345259454
Signed
2014-10-29
Discuss with paid preparer
Yes

Organization Details

Principal Officer
John Welchman
Formed
1946
Legal Domicile
Mi
Voting Board Members
292
Independent Board Members
292
Employees
0
Volunteers
85

Preparer

Preparer
John a Fleming
Phone
7348381232
Supplemental Narrative

Additional Explanations

Pt VI, Line 6

“Yes, 458 Members”

Pt VI, Line 7A

“Yes, all 458 Members”

Pt VI, Line 7B

“Vote would be taken during the monthly membership meeting”

Pt VI, Line 8A

“Yes there are minutes for all meetings”

Pt VI, Line 8B

“Yes there are minutes for all meetings”

Pt VI, Line 11B

“The Form 990 is made available to all members”

Raw XML Appendix256 raw XML fields

This appendix keeps the raw XML leaves available for debugging and edge-case review. The human report above is the primary experience.

Path#Value
IRS990/AccountantCompileOrReviewInd0true
IRS990/ActivitiesConductedPrtshpInd0false
IRS990/ActivityOrMissionDesc0Provide services for veterans
IRS990/AllOtherContributionsAmt04264
IRS990/AuditCommitteeInd0true
IRS990/BackupWthldComplianceInd0true
IRS990/BooksInCareOfDetail/PersonNm0RICHARD CIARIAMITARO
IRS990/BooksInCareOfDetail/PhoneNum07345259454
IRS990/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/AddressLine1028945 Joy Road
IRS990/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/City0Westland
IRS990/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/State0MI
IRS990/BooksInCareOfDetail/USAddress/ZIPCode048185
IRS990/BusinessRlnWithFamMemInd0false
IRS990/BusinessRlnWithOfficerEntInd0false
IRS990/BusinessRlnWithOrgMemInd0false
IRS990/CapStkTrPrinCurrentFundsGrp/BOYAmt05710
IRS990/CapStkTrPrinCurrentFundsGrp/EOYAmt06489
IRS990/CashNonInterestBearingGrp/BOYAmt05710
IRS990/CashNonInterestBearingGrp/EOYAmt06489
IRS990/ChangeToOrgDocumentsInd0false
IRS990/CollectionsOfArtInd0false
IRS990/CompensationFromOtherSrcsInd0false
IRS990/CompensationProcessCEOInd0false
IRS990/CompensationProcessOtherInd0false
IRS990/ConflictOfInterestPolicyInd0false
IRS990/ConservationEasementsInd0false
IRS990/ConsolidatedAuditFinclStmtInd0false
IRS990/CostOfGoodsSoldAmt013022
IRS990/CreditCounselingInd0false
IRS990/CYBenefitsPaidToMembersAmt00
IRS990/CYContributionsGrantsAmt04939
IRS990/CYGrantsAndSimilarPaidAmt00
IRS990/CYInvestmentIncomeAmt00
IRS990/CYOtherExpensesAmt030945
IRS990/CYOtherRevenueAmt026002
IRS990/CYProgramServiceRevenueAmt00
IRS990/CYRevenuesLessExpensesAmt0-4
IRS990/CYSalariesCompEmpBnftPaidAmt00
IRS990/CYTotalExpensesAmt030945
IRS990/CYTotalFundraisingExpenseAmt00
IRS990/CYTotalProfFndrsngExpnsAmt00
IRS990/CYTotalRevenueAmt030941
IRS990/DecisionsSubjectToApprovaInd0true
IRS990/DeductibleArtContributionInd0false
IRS990/DeductibleNonCashContriInd0false
IRS990/DelegationOfMgmtDutiesInd0false
IRS990/Desc0THANKSGIVING DINNERS FOR HOMELESS VETERANS, ALL ITEMS DONATED, HALL DONATED AND TIME DONATED
IRS990/DescribedInSection501c3Ind0false
IRS990/DisregardedEntityInd0false
IRS990/DistributionToDonorInd0false
IRS990/DocumentRetentionPolicyInd0true
IRS990/DonorAdvisedFundInd0false
IRS990/ElectionOfBoardMembersInd0true
IRS990/EmployeeCnt00
IRS990/EngagedInExcessBenefitTransInd0false
IRS990/ExcessBusinessHoldingsInd0false
IRS990/FamilyOrBusinessRlnInd0false
IRS990/FederalGrantAuditRequiredInd0false
IRS990/ForeignActivitiesInd0false
IRS990/ForeignFinancialAccountInd0false
IRS990/ForeignOfficeInd0false
IRS990/Form8282PropertyDisposedOfInd0false
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/AverageHoursPerWeekRt010.00
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/AverageHoursPerWeekRt110.00
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/IndividualTrusteeOrDirectorInd0X
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/IndividualTrusteeOrDirectorInd1X
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/OtherCompensationAmt00
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/OtherCompensationAmt10
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/PersonNm0JOHN WELCHMAN
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/PersonNm1RICHARD CIARAMITARO
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/ReportableCompFromOrgAmt00
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/ReportableCompFromOrgAmt10
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/ReportableCompFromRltdOrgAmt00
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/ReportableCompFromRltdOrgAmt10
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/TitleTxt0Commander
IRS990/Form990PartVIISectionAGrp/TitleTxt1Quartermaster
IRS990/Form990ProvidedToGvrnBodyInd0true
IRS990/FormationYr01946
IRS990/FormerOfcrEmployeesListedInd0false
IRS990/FSAuditedInd0false
IRS990/FundraisingActivitiesInd0false
IRS990/FundraisingDirectExpensesAmt0500
IRS990/FundraisingGrossIncomeAmt08698
IRS990/GamingActivitiesInd0false
IRS990/GamingDirectExpensesAmt09444
IRS990/GamingGrossIncomeAmt014789
IRS990/GoverningBodyVotingMembersCnt0292
IRS990/GrantsToIndividualsInd0false
IRS990/GrantsToOrganizationsInd0false
IRS990/GrantToRelatedPersonInd0false
IRS990/GrossReceiptsAmt054059
IRS990/GrossRentsGrp/RealAmt03415
IRS990/GrossSalesOfInventoryAmt022218
IRS990/GroupReturnForAffiliatesInd0false
IRS990/IncludeFIN48FootnoteInd0false
IRS990/IndependentAuditFinclStmtInd0false
IRS990/IndependentVotingMemberCnt0292
IRS990/IndoorTanningServicesInd0false
IRS990/InfoInScheduleOPartVIInd0X
IRS990/InvestmentInJointVentureInd0false
IRS990/IRPDocumentCnt00
IRS990/IRPDocumentW2GCnt00
IRS990/LandBldgEquipBasisNetGrp/BOYAmt0300000
IRS990/LandBldgEquipBasisNetGrp/EOYAmt0300000
IRS990/LandBldgEquipCostOrOtherBssAmt0300000
IRS990/LegalDomicileStateCd0MI
IRS990/LessRentalExpensesGrp/RealAmt0152
IRS990/LoanOutstandingInd0false
IRS990/LobbyingActivitiesInd0false
IRS990/LocalChaptersInd0false
IRS990/MaterialDiversionOrMisuseInd0false
IRS990/MembershipDuesAmt0675
IRS990/MembersOrStockholdersInd0true
IRS990/MethodOfAccountingCashInd0X
IRS990/MinutesOfCommitteesInd0true
IRS990/MinutesOfGoverningBodyInd0true
IRS990/MissionDesc0Provide services for veterans
IRS990/MoreThan5000KToIndividualsInd0false
IRS990/MoreThan5000KToOrgInd0false
IRS990/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesBOYAmt0305710
IRS990/NetAssetsOrFundBalancesEOYAmt0306489
IRS990/NetIncmFromFundraisingEvtGrp/ExclusionAmt08198
IRS990/NetIncmFromFundraisingEvtGrp/TotalRevenueColumnAmt08198
IRS990/NetIncomeFromGamingGrp/RelatedOrExemptFuncIncomeAmt05345
IRS990/NetIncomeFromGamingGrp/TotalRevenueColumnAmt05345
IRS990/NetIncomeOrLossGrp/RelatedOrExemptFuncIncomeAmt09196
IRS990/NetIncomeOrLossGrp/TotalRevenueColumnAmt09196
IRS990/NetRentalIncomeOrLossGrp/RelatedOrExemptFuncIncomeAmt03263
IRS990/NetRentalIncomeOrLossGrp/TotalRevenueColumnAmt03263
IRS990/NoListedPersonsCompensatedInd0X
IRS990/NondeductibleContributionsInd0false
IRS990/OfficerMailingAddressInd0false
IRS990/OperateHospitalInd0false
IRS990/Organization501cInd0X
IRS990/OrgDoesNotFollowSFAS117Ind0X
IRS990/OtherChangesInNetAssetsAmt0783
IRS990/OtherExpensesGrp/Desc0Administrative
IRS990/OtherExpensesGrp/Desc1Building Operating Exp
IRS990/OtherExpensesGrp/Desc2Post Expenses
IRS990/OtherExpensesGrp/TotalAmt04012
IRS990/OtherExpensesGrp/TotalAmt126296
IRS990/OtherExpensesGrp/TotalAmt2637
IRS990/PartialLiquidationInd0false
IRS990/PayPremiumsPrsnlBnftCntrctInd0false
IRS990/PdInCapSrplsLandBldgEqpFundGrp/BOYAmt0300000
IRS990/PdInCapSrplsLandBldgEqpFundGrp/EOYAmt0300000
IRS990/PoliticalCampaignActyInd0false
IRS990/PrincipalOfficerNm0JOHN WELCHMAN
IRS990/ProfessionalFundraisingInd0false
IRS990/ProgSrvcAccomActy2Grp/Desc0HALL RENTAL FREE TO DETROIT ASSN OF THE DEATH, PTSD GROUPS, MARINE CORP LEAGUE, NAVAL RECRUITING STATION AND GROUPS LIKE THESE
IRS990/ProhibitedTaxShelterTransInd0false
IRS990/PYContributionsGrantsAmt011195
IRS990/PYExcessBenefitTransInd0false
IRS990/PYOtherExpensesAmt041021
IRS990/PYOtherRevenueAmt024399
IRS990/PYRevenuesLessExpensesAmt0-5427
IRS990/PYTotalExpensesAmt041021
IRS990/PYTotalRevenueAmt035594
IRS990/QuidProQuoContributionsInd0false
IRS990/RcvFndsToPayPrsnlBnftCntrctInd0false
IRS990/ReconcilationRevenueExpnssAmt0-4
IRS990/RelatedEntityInd0false
IRS990/RelatedOrganizationCtrlEntInd0false
IRS990/RentalIncomeOrLossGrp/RealAmt03263
IRS990/ReportInvestmentsOtherSecInd0false
IRS990/ReportLandBuildingEquipmentInd0true
IRS990/ReportOtherAssetsInd0false
IRS990/ReportOtherLiabilitiesInd0false
IRS990/ReportProgramRelatedInvstInd0false
IRS990/ScheduleBRequiredInd0false
IRS990ScheduleD/BuildingsGrp/BookValueAmt0300000
IRS990ScheduleD/BuildingsGrp/InvestmentCostOrOtherBasisAmt0300000
IRS990ScheduleD/TotalBookValueLandBuildingsAmt0300000
IRS990/ScheduleJRequiredInd0false
IRS990/ScheduleORequiredInd0false
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt0Yes, 458 Members
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt1Yes, all 458 Members
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt2Vote would be taken during the monthly membership meeting
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt3Yes there are minutes for all meetings
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt4Yes there are minutes for all meetings
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/ExplanationTxt5The Form 990 is made available to all members
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc0Pt VI, Line 6
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc1Pt VI, Line 7a
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc2Pt VI, Line 7b
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc3Pt VI, Line 8a
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc4Pt VI, Line 8b
IRS990ScheduleO/SupplementalInformationDetail/FormAndLineReferenceDesc5Pt VI, Line 11b
IRS990/SchoolOperatingInd0false
IRS990/SignificantChangeInd0false
IRS990/SignificantNewProgramSrvcInd0false
IRS990/StatesWhereCopyOfReturnIsFldCd0MI
IRS990/SubjectToProxyTaxInd0false
IRS990/TaxableDistributionsInd0false
IRS990/TaxablePartyNotificationInd0false
IRS990/TaxExemptBondsInd0false
IRS990/TempOrPermanentEndowmentsInd0false
IRS990/TerminateOperationsInd0false
IRS990/TotalAssetsBOYAmt0305710
IRS990/TotalAssetsEOYAmt0306489
IRS990/TotalAssetsGrp/BOYAmt0305710
IRS990/TotalAssetsGrp/EOYAmt0306489
IRS990/TotalCompGreaterThan150KInd0false
IRS990/TotalContributionsAmt04939
IRS990/TotalEmployeeCnt00
IRS990/TotalFunctionalExpensesGrp/TotalAmt030945
IRS990/TotalGrossUBIAmt00
IRS990/TotalLiabilitiesEOYAmt00
IRS990/TotalLiabilitiesGrp/BOYAmt00
IRS990/TotalLiabilitiesGrp/EOYAmt00
IRS990/TotalNetAssetsFundBalanceGrp/BOYAmt0305710
IRS990/TotalNetAssetsFundBalanceGrp/EOYAmt0306489
IRS990/TotalRevenueGrp/ExclusionAmt08198
IRS990/TotalRevenueGrp/RelatedOrExemptFuncIncomeAmt017804
IRS990/TotalRevenueGrp/TotalRevenueColumnAmt030941
IRS990/TotalVolunteersCnt085
IRS990/TotLiabNetAssetsFundBalanceGrp/BOYAmt0305710
IRS990/TotLiabNetAssetsFundBalanceGrp/EOYAmt0306489
IRS990/TransactionWithControlEntInd0false
IRS990/TypeOfOrganizationCorpInd0X
IRS990/UnrelatedBusIncmOverLimitInd0false
IRS990/UponRequestInd0X
IRS990/USAddress/AddressLine10412 N Silvery Lane
IRS990/USAddress/City0Dearborn
IRS990/USAddress/State0MI
IRS990/USAddress/ZIPCode048128
IRS990/VotingMembersGoverningBodyCnt0292
IRS990/VotingMembersIndependentCnt0292
IRS990/WebsiteAddressTxt0N/A
IRS990/WhistleblowerPolicyInd0false
ReturnHeader/BuildTS02015-11-30 17:44:51Z
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/DiscussWithPaidPreparerInd0true
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PersonNm0JOHN WELCHMAN
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PersonTitleTxt0COMMANDER
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/PhoneNum07345259454
ReturnHeader/BusinessOfficerGrp/SignatureDt02014-10-29
ReturnHeader/Filer/BusinessName/BusinessNameLine10Veterans of Foreign Wars Dept of
ReturnHeader/Filer/BusinessNameControlTxt0VETE
ReturnHeader/Filer/EIN0237143090
ReturnHeader/Filer/PhoneNum07345259454
ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/AddressLine1028945 Joy Road
ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/City0Westland
ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/State0MI
ReturnHeader/Filer/USAddress/ZIPCode048185
ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerFirmName/BusinessNameLine10Fleming Financial Services Inc
ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerUSAddress/AddressLine1029217 Ford Road Suite 119
ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerUSAddress/City0Garden City
ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerUSAddress/State0MI
ReturnHeader/PreparerFirmGrp/PreparerUSAddress/ZIPCode048135
ReturnHeader/PreparerPersonGrp/PhoneNum07348381232
ReturnHeader/PreparerPersonGrp/PreparationDt02014-12-10
ReturnHeader/PreparerPersonGrp/PreparerPersonNm0JOHN A FLEMING
ReturnHeader/ReturnTs02014-12-10T14:10:12-08:00
ReturnHeader/ReturnTypeCd0990
ReturnHeader/TaxPeriodBeginDt02013-07-01
ReturnHeader/TaxPeriodEndDt02014-06-30
ReturnHeader/TaxYr02013

Document Assets

No mirrored PDF or thumbnail assets are attached yet.